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Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 10th, 2006, 6:50 pm
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I don't get it. Barty Crouch Jr. was at Hogwarts all year. Why didn't he just make a Portkey, call Harry to his office, toss Harry the Portkey and send him packing to the Little Hangleton graveyard? From book 1 we see that Voldemort likes to make sure that Dumbledore doesn't show up. So, Voldemort executed a very elaborate and difficult plan just so Dumbledore wouldn't think it weird if Harry was apparently taking a long time in the maze to get the Cup? Wouldn't Dumbledore be just as oblivious if Harry was apparently up in "Moody's" office for a long time? And even if Voldemort figured that Dumbledore keeps a very close watch on Harry, the maze was setup on the Quidditch pitch and was thus still on the Hogwarts grounds. I don't see why having Harry Portkey from the pitch would be any less detectable than having him Portkey from some discreet place in the castle.

In all the other books there are reasons why the action takes place close to the end of the year, so GoF should have realistic reasons too. Any ideas?


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  #2  
Old December 10th, 2006, 6:54 pm
Lilkittikat  Female.gif Lilkittikat is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Because Harry dissapearing from the middle of Hogwarts would've been too obvious - DD would've caught on. No-one would notice if Harry dissapeared from the maze - If he didn't come out they'd just assume he was lost, and it would be ages before they sent someone in. By then, Voldie would've been able to kill harry.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 7:04 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Who cares if DD caught on? Voldy would have killed Harry by then, The only reason that comes to mind and it is a foolish one at that is Tom wanted to be credited for a intricate plan, he does seem the type to show off.


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  #4  
Old December 10th, 2006, 7:34 pm
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilkittikat View Post
Because Harry dissapearing from the middle of Hogwarts would've been too obvious - DD would've caught on. No-one would notice if Harry dissapeared from the maze - If he didn't come out they'd just assume he was lost, and it would be ages before they sent someone in. By then, Voldie would've been able to kill harry.
Does Dumbledore really check up on Harry that much though? Barty Crouch Jr. could have done it on a weekend so Harry wouldn't be missed from class. Ron would probably be the first to realize that Harry had been in "Moody's" office for a long time, but he wouldn't immediately suspect foul play, because it's a pretty darn big castle and it wouldn't be odd that Moody was keeping Harry for longer than was expected. And as Mumbonumbo said, Harry would be long dead by then. Even if Dumbledore found out soon enough that Harry was gone, would he really know to go to the Little Hangleton graveyard?

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Originally Posted by Mumbonumbo View Post
The only reason that comes to mind and it is a foolish one at that is Tom wanted to be credited for a intricate plan, he does seem the type to show off.
Yeah, that's a pretty good reason, but it just doesn't feel as substantial as the ones for the other books (Voldemort was probing the Stone's defense all year, Voldemort was sending the basilisk after Muggleborns and then decided he would lure Harry into the Chamber, etc, etc). So I'm wondering if there's something we're seeing.


  #5  
Old December 10th, 2006, 8:13 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I believe that one reason is because of Crouch Jr. If the plan would have worked out as planned and Harry died Dumbledore and the rest of the world wouldnt immediately blam madeye because no one would have known that it was him that made the portkey. But if Harry would have disappeared and been killed while he was in Moody's room, it would be a little more obvious that Moody was... in a way involved.

Does that make sense...


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  #6  
Old December 10th, 2006, 8:26 pm
Maggie3000  Female.gif Maggie3000 is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I don't think that you can portkey inside of the school.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 8:30 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Voldemort's re-appearance was supposed to be secret, so LV hoped Harry's death in the Final Task would have been accepted, whereas his sudden disappearance would have raised questions, and alerted the world to his resurrection.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 8:37 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggie3000 View Post
I don't think that you can portkey inside of the school.
Actually, in OOTP Harry and Weasleys portkeyed out of the school when Mr. Weasley was attacked, and Harry potkeyed into the school after the battle at the ministry.

I think it is likely that it wasn't until the end of June that the potion to restore Voldemort to his body would be ready. There are other potions that take months to develop.

Otherwise, I agree with those who say that Voldemort wanted to make sure that suspicion, especially by Dumbledore, was minimized. In OOTP, the Order told Harry that he thwarted Voldemort's plan by surviving and telling Dumbledore. They said Dumbledore was the one person Voldemort did not want alerted to his return.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 8:55 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Voldemort loves grandeur, he loves the splendor and showing off. He wants credit for the things he does. That is why he set up a complicated evil plan to get Harry to the graveyard, to take him away, right from under Dumbledores nose, likeJimmyPotter said: without DD suspecting something. There was much at stake for Voldemort, it was all or nothing for him.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 9:05 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I agree with karate kid but another point is that the potion might not have been finished until the end of the school year. Thats why moody couldn't have used the second task to cover harry's death. Also crouch probably was unable to communicate with voldemort so they arranged a time and then they could not change it


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Old December 10th, 2006, 9:27 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyogoetophile View Post
I don't get it. Barty Crouch Jr. was at Hogwarts all year. Why didn't he just make a Portkey, call Harry to his office, toss Harry the Portkey and send him packing to the Little Hangleton graveyard? From book 1 we see that Voldemort likes to make sure that Dumbledore doesn't show up. So, Voldemort executed a very elaborate and difficult plan just so Dumbledore wouldn't think it weird if Harry was apparently taking a long time in the maze to get the Cup? Wouldn't Dumbledore be just as oblivious if Harry was apparently up in "Moody's" office for a long time? And even if Voldemort figured that Dumbledore keeps a very close watch on Harry, the maze was setup on the Quidditch pitch and was thus still on the Hogwarts grounds. I don't see why having Harry Portkey from the pitch would be any less detectable than having him Portkey from some discreet place in the castle.

In all the other books there are reasons why the action takes place close to the end of the year, so GoF should have realistic reasons too. Any ideas?
I believe that the Portkey to transport Harry to the graveyard had to be something desirable to make Harry want to touch it basically.Also I think that the potion and everything needed to be setup for everything to go right.


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  #12  
Old December 10th, 2006, 9:28 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

The fact is that no unauthorised portkeys could be made in the school, but the magic protection would ahve been dropped during the last task to allow the students to tackle the maze, so then false moody was able to make a portkey to transport harry.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 10:28 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I think it's a combination of two things.

The first thing being that if the plan succeeded, no one ever would have known that Barty Crouchy Jr was out of Azkaban and he could have continued on Voldemort's orders.

The second being that maybe the potion that was made to reserect Voldemort needed a really long time to stew. Remember the Pollyjuice potion needed a long time to sit? Maybe it was the same for Voldemort's potion!


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Old December 10th, 2006, 10:34 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyogoetophile View Post
I don't get it. Barty Crouch Jr. was at Hogwarts all year. Why didn't he just make a Portkey, call Harry to his office, toss Harry the Portkey and send him packing to the Little Hangleton graveyard? From book 1 we see that Voldemort likes to make sure that Dumbledore doesn't show up. So, Voldemort executed a very elaborate and difficult plan just so Dumbledore wouldn't think it weird if Harry was apparently taking a long time in the maze to get the Cup? Wouldn't Dumbledore be just as oblivious if Harry was apparently up in "Moody's" office for a long time? And even if Voldemort figured that Dumbledore keeps a very close watch on Harry, the maze was setup on the Quidditch pitch and was thus still on the Hogwarts grounds. I don't see why having Harry Portkey from the pitch would be any less detectable than having him Portkey from some discreet place in the castle.

In all the other books there are reasons why the action takes place close to the end of the year, so GoF should have realistic reasons too. Any ideas?
Voldemort may not have been ready to undergo his transformation. He did say that travelling had weakened him somewhat, so it's possible he still had a bunch of work to do on his end before he could use Harry to create a new body. I mean, it was not a low-impact bit of magic, he probably had to be sure he could survive it. Plus since he wanted it to look as though Harry died in the tournament, waiting until the end of the year was really the best plan.

It also seems possible that any unauthorized portkey is immediately detected by the Ministry. If the cup was supposed to be a portkey anyway then fake Moody might have simply pretended to make the cup a portkey that would transport the winner to a podium or something. It would have been an authorized use of the spell, all he had to do was change the destination.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 10:36 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat4891 View Post
The fact is that no unauthorised portkeys could be made in the school, but the magic protection would ahve been dropped during the last task to allow the students to tackle the maze, so then false moody was able to make a portkey to transport harry.
Perfectly said. It would have been hard to get a portkey past the magical enchantments of the school and right under Dumbledore's nose. It made perfect sense to have the portkey in the tournament where such enchantments were absent and Dumbledore did not have control.


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Old December 10th, 2006, 11:45 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

By having Harry disappear during the third task, Voldemort could make it appear that Harry's death was simply a tragic accident caused by the tournament. That way, no one would ever be aware that Voldemort returned. Once Harry was dead, Voldemort could use the portkey to retun Harry's body to Hogwarts to complete the illusion that Harry was killed during the tournament. That way, there would be no evidence that Voldemort ever returned.


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Old December 11th, 2006, 1:05 am
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

There have been several mentions of a potion that Voldemort needed to regain his body, but I don't remember one. Voldemort was apparently already in some tangible form when he murdered Frank Byrce, and there's a good chance that he was in Babymort form at the time. Also, there wasn't any potion necessary for Voldemort's return to his true human form. He just needed flesh from a servant, a piece of bone from his father, and some blood from Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat4891 View Post
The fact is that no unauthorised portkeys could be made in the school, but the magic protection would ahve been dropped during the last task to allow the students to tackle the maze, so then false moody was able to make a portkey to transport harry.
I don't see why anti-unauthorized-Portkey enchantments would be removed, or really any enchantments. The older contestants had probably all passed their Apparition exams and were able to Apparate. Would that be fair for Cedric to beat Harry to the cup because once it was in sight he could Apparate to it faster than Harry could run to it? And according to Barty Crouch Jr's confession (which is the only book reference I can find that speaks to this) the cup was not supposed to be a Portkey that would, for instance, transport the victor back to the edge of the maze:
GoF, Veritaserum, 688 USA servant who could watch over Harry Potter. Ensure he reached the Triwizard Cup. Turn the cup into a Portkey, which would take the first person to touch it to my master.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Padfoot_Prongs View Post
Perfectly said. It would have been hard to get a portkey past the magical enchantments of the school and right under Dumbledore's nose. It made perfect sense to have the portkey in the tournament where such enchantments were absent and Dumbledore did not have control.
I don't think Barty Crouch Jr would have made a Portkey and then walked it up to the school. He would made a Portkey and given it to Harry very quickly so Dumbledore wouldn't have time to interfere.

According to Dumbledore, Voldemort was Hogwarts' most brilliant student, so I don't see what would make him think that magical protections that apply to the castle don't apply to the entire grounds, which includes the Quidditch pitch. Voldemort couldn't have been banking on the chance that Dumbledore would lift Portkey protections or make the cup a Portkey for the simple purpose of transporting the champion back to the crowd (both of which apparently were not part of Dumbledore's plan), could he?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonna View Post
Once Harry was dead, Voldemort could use the portkey to retun Harry's body to Hogwarts to complete the illusion that Harry was killed during the tournament. That way, there would be no evidence that Voldemort ever returned.
If Harry died, Dumbledore would immediately suspect Voldemort. So, in order for it to seem like Harry was killed in the maze and not by Voldemort, Harry would have to have believable wounds and there would have to be creatures in the maze that people could actually believe had killed Harry Potter. It probably wouldn't have been too hard for Barty Crouch Jr to inform Voldemort of what creatures were going to be put into the maze so that V could mimic the wounds that they give. The problem is that people (especially Dumbledore) would have a hard time believing that a dementor, Blast-Ended Skrewt, or acromantula had defeated a boy who had thrice bested Voldemort.

Also, if Dumbledore had not planned for the cup to be a Portkey (which so far appears to be the case) and a dead Harry suddenly appeared with the cup in his hand, Dumbledore would absolutely know that it was Voldemort.

So, I don't know. Perhaps there is something to be said about the idea that Voldemort certainly wasn't going to have an easy time of killing Harry without Dumbledore figuring it out but Voldemort just figured he would give it a shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
He did say that travelling had weakened him somewhat, so it's possible he still had a bunch of work to do on his end before he could use Harry to create a new body. I mean, it was not a low-impact bit of magic, he probably had to be sure he could survive it.
This is one good explanation that I don't see any problems with, except that it just doesn't feel as substantial a reason as can be found in all the other books for why the action doesn't happen until the end of the school year. Although it did occur to me while doing this post that GoF is the only book where the person who is kind of the catalyst for the final action (Voldemort most of the time but Peter in PoA and Draco in HBP) isn't really present until the end. Maybe it's because Voldemort is do distant in GoF and there was really no way to work in why exactly he was shooting for the Third Task that something seems off. Maybe we're just supposed to infer that Voldemort was being ultra careful and was pretty weak from travelling and that's why he took a whole school year to get Harry to touch a Portkey. Anyways, I'm just throwing ideas out there.


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Old December 11th, 2006, 1:32 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyogoetophile View Post
If Harry died, Dumbledore would immediately suspect Voldemort. So, in order for it to seem like Harry was killed in the maze and not by Voldemort, Harry would have to have believable wounds and there would have to be creatures in the maze that people could actually believe had killed Harry Potter. It probably wouldn't have been too hard for Barty Crouch Jr to inform Voldemort of what creatures were going to be put into the maze so that V could mimic the wounds that they give. The problem is that people (especially Dumbledore) would have a hard time believing that a dementor, Blast-Ended Skrewt, or acromantula had defeated a boy who had thrice bested Voldemort.
Even if Dumbledore wasn't convinced, the ministry certainly would have been convinced which in the end was what was really necessary. With the ministry in the dark, Voldemort could rebuild his forces in secret without any fear of being interfered with. Even though Dumbledore does have the Order on his side, the Order is a relatively small group compared to Voldemort's followers. It's not large enough to fight Voldemort effectively on its own. Also, in this scenario, the general public would be even less likely to believe that Voldemort was back. Fatalities in the triwizard tournament were not unusual. If the public believed that Harry has simply died due to the tournament, people would be much more lax. Voldemort probably knew that the gambit would not fool Dumbledore, but all he really needed to do was fool the rest of the magical world.

Also, Voldemort may have intended to mimic the wounds of one of the creatures who was in the maze after he AK'd Harry. Faking the injuries of a blast-ended skrewt, for example, would be simpler if the subject was already dead.


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Old December 11th, 2006, 1:47 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicloetje View Post
Voldemort loves grandeur, he loves the splendor and showing off. He wants credit for the things he does. That is why he set up a complicated evil plan to get Harry to the graveyard, to take him away, right from under Dumbledores nose, likeJimmyPotter said: without DD suspecting something. There was much at stake for Voldemort, it was all or nothing for him.
I agree. Also, consider this:

Until that moment, no one believed that Voldemort was really back. Think of the enormous impact he could have made: the entire Wizarding world- the Ministry and all three schools- are in one place, watching, ready to celebrate the triumph of a champion.

However, instead they see a Dark Mark rise over the maze, and underneath, they find the murdered body of Harry Potter. (Peter could easily have returned the body by Portkey, fired the mark and escaped again.)

Such a spectacle would have crushed Dumbledore, demoralized the entire Wizarding world and started a panic in which it would have been far easier for him to wage war.


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Old December 11th, 2006, 1:49 am
lullabelle5  Female.gif lullabelle5 is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonna View Post
By having Harry disappear during the third task, Voldemort could make it appear that Harry's death was simply a tragic accident caused by the tournament. That way, no one would ever be aware that Voldemort returned. Once Harry was dead, Voldemort could use the portkey to retun Harry's body to Hogwarts to complete the illusion that Harry was killed during the tournament. That way, there would be no evidence that Voldemort ever returned.
Not to mention crouch jr. would have been able possibly continue pretending to be moody. This would be extremely valuable to voldemort because moody and dumbledore are close friends. Also, when dumbledore later figured out that voldy was back and got the order back together, voldemort would have automatically had a spy in the order (he didn't know during gof if snape could be trusted still).


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