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Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 11th, 2006, 3:16 am
gottalovelife  Undisclosed.gif gottalovelife is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

It's just so much cooler this way.


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  #22  
Old December 11th, 2006, 9:46 am
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonna View Post
Even if Dumbledore wasn't convinced, the ministry certainly would have been convinced which in the end was what was really necessary.
That's an excellent point. Making Harry's death look like an accident wouldn't fool Dumbledore but it would fool the Ministry and spread enough doubt that most people would probably side with the Ministry.

One issue is how Voldemort knew that the champions would be obscured from the crowd during the Third Task. If everyone saw Harry grab the cup and get Portkeyed away, then no one--not even the Ministry--would believe that Harry was killed by a Skrewt. Voldemort must have at least had a very educated guess way back in the summer. I don't see him working on a large plan that would be foiled if the Third Task was in front of the crowd like the first one was. Perhaps Triwizard Tournaments are similar and Voldemort knew the Third Task would be a maze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Until that moment, no one believed that Voldemort was really back. Think of the enormous impact he could have made: the entire Wizarding world- the Ministry and all three schools- are in one place, watching, ready to celebrate the triumph of a champion.

However, instead they see a Dark Mark rise over the maze, and underneath, they find the murdered body of Harry Potter. (Peter could easily have returned the body by Portkey, fired the mark and escaped again.)

Such a spectacle would have crushed Dumbledore, demoralized the entire Wizarding world and started a panic in which it would have been far easier for him to wage war.
No fair, Hinoema. You come in from a completely different angle and give a Voldemort plan that would explain why he waited all year and that doesn't even require that there be dangerous creatures or obscuring maze walls in the Third Task.


  #23  
Old December 11th, 2006, 9:47 am
hyogoetophile  Male.gif hyogoetophile is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonna View Post
Even if Dumbledore wasn't convinced, the ministry certainly would have been convinced which in the end was what was really necessary.
That's an excellent point. Making Harry's death look like an accident wouldn't fool Dumbledore but it would fool the Ministry and spread enough doubt that most people would probably side with the Ministry.

One issue is how Voldemort knew that the champions would be obscured from the crowd during the Third Task. If everyone saw Harry grab the cup and get Portkeyed away, then no one--not even the Ministry--would believe that Harry was killed by a Skrewt. Voldemort must have at least had a very educated guess way back in the summer. I don't see him working on a large plan that would be foiled if the Third Task was in front of the crowd like the first one was. Perhaps Triwizard Tournaments are similar and Voldemort knew the Third Task would be a maze.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Until that moment, no one believed that Voldemort was really back. Think of the enormous impact he could have made: the entire Wizarding world- the Ministry and all three schools- are in one place, watching, ready to celebrate the triumph of a champion.

However, instead they see a Dark Mark rise over the maze, and underneath, they find the murdered body of Harry Potter. (Peter could easily have returned the body by Portkey, fired the mark and escaped again.)

Such a spectacle would have crushed Dumbledore, demoralized the entire Wizarding world and started a panic in which it would have been far easier for him to wage war.
No fair, Hinoema. You come in from a completely different angle and give a Voldemort plan that would explain why he waited all year and that doesn't even require that there be dangerous creatures or obscuring maze walls in the Third Task.



Last edited by hyogoetophile; December 11th, 2006 at 5:40 pm. Reason: accidental triple post?
  #24  
Old December 11th, 2006, 11:00 am
eyes_green  Female.gif eyes_green is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Well it would have been foolish for him to do so for a number of reasons:

1) If Harry disappeared to "Moody's" office for a long time, and didn't come back the first person to be suspected. And if you remember Voldemort wanted to operate secretly after his resurrection, he would have probably wanted Crouch Jr to remain at Hogwarts as a spy. *see 3*(He had thought Snape had left him for ever, remember?)

2) How long would that potion have taken to brew? It might have taken months to brew before it was ready to take Harry's blood. And if they had taken Harry early, Dumbledore and the ministry would have probably turned the entire country upside down looking for him, and whats for betting that Dumbledore might guess where they were ?

3)Voldemort could stage Harry a very convincing death in the third task, there were a lot of obstacles Barty Jr cursed out of his way, if the circumstances are right even Dumbledore could be fooled, for a time. This would give Voldemort the chance to operate in secret for as long as months, build up his army again and no one would know the wiser.

4) Besides Voldemort loves showing off, and if that plan had worked perfectly (right under Dumbledore's nose) then he would certainly have something to brag about.


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  #25  
Old December 11th, 2006, 11:10 am
resol612  Undisclosed.gif resol612 is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Problem is, the Triwizard Cup is meant to be a Portkey to take the winner out of the maze. Remember when Harry carrying Cedric's body is Portkey'ed back to Hogwarts, outside the maze, and yet people are cheering and so on (before they see Cedric dead etc)? Maybe it works that way, so it will be a lot easier to redirect the Cup's initial destination somewhere else.

Moreover the potion only required three important ingredients: the blood of foe, the bones of the father and the flesh of the servant. Maybe the potion does not need much pre-brewing.


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  #26  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:40 am
jokerinthepack  Undisclosed.gif jokerinthepack is offline
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the Triwizard Tournament: why?

I've just reread Goblet of Fire, and it is an absolutely wonderful book but the premise seems a tad unbelievable. I cannot for the life of me think of any reason Crouch (as Moody) couldn't just turn Harry's pillow or broomstick or sock into a portkey and get the whole thing over with rather than waiting TEN MONTHS on a plan that did not even completely succeed to make Harry win the Triwizard Tournament and grab the cup. Did I miss something? Can only boots and Triwizard Cups function as Portkeys? I feel Voldemort must be able to come up with a better plan than this.

Also: the Quidditch teams don't play for a whole season in order to watch a few people enter the lake/a labyrinth and wait for them to come out again? Is this really compelling for spectators? Isn't it bad enough that the only normal sport is restricted to just 7 players, ONE of whom actually matters?


  #27  
Old March 17th, 2007, 6:31 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

I think the point was that no one was supposed to suspect Voldy might be back. Having Harry disappear in the maze could mean it could be blamed on the Triwizards Competition (where participants hae been known to die in the past). The reason the plan did not succeed was because Harry made it 'back'.

Consider instead the repercussions of having Harry disappear in the middle of the night while in his dorm room or in the middle of a Quidditch game. Everyone would suspect foul play if Harry never returned.

But if he disappeared in the maze and was never seen again - it could have been because of the competition. Especially considering the way they portrayed the maze itself in the movie version. You could be 'disappeared' right into the hedge unless someone came and saved you.


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Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

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  #28  
Old March 17th, 2007, 6:53 am
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

That and all the protections for Harry inside the school and at the Durlseys were waay too strong for Vapormort to penetrate. An ancient object such as the tri-wizard cup would be the only item without a protection charm on it, since it is so old and complicated.


  #29  
Old March 17th, 2007, 9:31 am
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

I would like to know why the port key was two way instead of one way like the others we've seen.


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  #30  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:14 am
Wright1771  Undisclosed.gif Wright1771 is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

You couldn't have a 'one way portkey', how would Harry escape? The 7 books would end up as 4 books, and we wouldn't be awaiting Deathly Hallows!


  #31  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:38 am
Night_Seeker  Male.gif Night_Seeker is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

Well I always just thought the standard spell for a port-key automaticly set it to be two-way.

Or there's a theroy I read in the Harry Potter Lexicon, that Voldemort and his cronies planned to use the portkey to return to Hogwarts with the dead body of Harry and attack everyone there and make a dramatic return for Voldemort. Thats why Barty Crouch JR 'forgot' to take the potion that night. He was going to revert back to his true form when the Death Eaters arrived and join in on the attack.

Its a pretty good theroy.


  #32  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:54 am
gavina  Male.gif gavina is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerinthepack View Post
I've just reread Goblet of Fire, and it is an absolutely wonderful book but the premise seems a tad unbelievable.
It's what's known as a convoluted plot device, or Byzantine plot to LV.

Yet another wasted post, I expect, thread surely can't survive.

Besides it's JKR's story, not ours.


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  #33  
Old March 17th, 2007, 11:31 am
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

I always assumed that the potion that they needed to make so voldemort could come back was so incredibly complicated that it took that long to brew. We know it took a long time to make the Polyjuice potion, as well as the restorative draught from the mandrakes, so complex potions take a long time to make. It wouldn't surprise me if the reincarnation potion used in the graveyard took that many months to make.


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  #34  
Old March 17th, 2007, 11:57 am
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

That makes sense, tibbs...I hadn't thought of that before.

I always just figured that since Crouch was in the school under disguise, he couldn't act as openly as he may have liked. His actions needed to be secret in order to keep Voldemort's plan of rising and not letting anyone know he was back, and so it was his plan from the time he learned the tournament would be held at Hogwarts to have Crouch help Harry get to the Cup. Harry was sent to the graveyard from the maze because, as has been pointed out, Harry's disappearance from the maze would be looked upon as a tragedy of the tournament. Voldemort would have been able to carry out his plans in secret, and no one would know he was back. The cup was a two way portkey so that they could have Harry's dead body delivered back to Hogwarts, and in that way cover up Voldemort's rising. The cut on his arm would likely be attributed to a branch or something. And since Avada Kedavra does not normally leave a mark, no one would be the wiser.

As for why this portkey was two way and the others we've seen weren't, it makes sense if you think that the others only needed to be one way. This one needed to be two ways. There is probably a different spell for each type of portkey.


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  #35  
Old March 17th, 2007, 12:02 pm
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

Still leaves the question as to why they would need to have a return trip.

I think that maybe Voldemort was planning to send Death Eaters back to Hogwarts, although that doesn't mesh with the idea of keeping Voldy's return secret. Also, they may have been planning to return Harry's body to the maze, so it would look like he died in the maze. Why leave them with a disappearance that would result in a search and possible investigation that could reveal that the cup was a portkey when you can make it look like harry never left?


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  #36  
Old March 17th, 2007, 12:04 pm
Idiot_Joe  Male.gif Idiot_Joe is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

well would you rather goblet of fire a few hundred pages shorter and its name changed to Harry Potter & The Vanishing Pillow, and read about how harry just suddenly got transported to a graveyard when he thought he was going to have a peaceful nice sleep but ended up fighting the worlds most evil wizard ?

Boring? aye.

So thats another point why we have the TWT in GoF cause its just that wee bit more interesting that vanishing pillows


  #37  
Old March 17th, 2007, 1:11 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: the Triwizard Tournament: why?

Here's why: (my hypothesis)

Because of the TWT, everyone who is anyone in the entire wizarding world will be in one spot. What better way for Voldemort to make a comeback, than to get Harry, reincarnate, kill Harry, have one of his DE key Harry's body back, fire the dark mark and vanish? Scare the beets out of everyone in their world in one stroke. Voldemort is back! Potter is dead! Beware!

It's brilliant. (Or would have been, you know, if it had worked...)



Last edited by Hinoema; March 17th, 2007 at 1:15 pm.
  #38  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:03 pm
Martok  Male.gif Martok is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

The TWT was still very dangerous--even with Crouch Jr. tweaking things here and there. There was no guarantee that Harry would survive all 3 tasks. This plan of Voldemort's was very risky as so many things could have gone wrong.


  #39  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:07 pm
Rhea7  Female.gif Rhea7 is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Other than because if it happened in the first ten chapters of the book if would've ruined it, maybe.... the covering of the maze would be hard to see what happens belwo. No one ever talked about Krum attacking people, so it was a way for Voldemort to take him without anyone noticing that harry was gone.


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  #40  
Old March 17th, 2007, 5:33 pm
Harry10  Undisclosed.gif Harry10 is offline
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Ok, this is one of those question's that seem to me to have a fairly obivous answer. First of all we know that apparition is impossible in the school grounds if it was limited to the castle there would be no reason to have Dumbledore lift the enchantments on the hall in HBP to practice, they could just go outside, secondly if it were possible there would be no mystery as to how Sirus bypassed the dementors POA. The dementors were patroling outside the grounds, Sirus could just apperate in then walk into the castle.
Secondly it seems that there are indeed barriers against portkeys in place. When Dumbledore sends Harry back to his office during OOTP Phineas Nigellus comments that
"This office is supposed to be barred to all but the rightfull Headmaster. Or has Dumbledore sent you here?"
In other words there is no getting in or out of Dumbledore's office by portkey unless Dumbledore himself wishes it. This explains why Harry has no diffculty getting in at the conclusion and why he and the Weasley's can get to Grimmauld place, Dumbledore removes the barrier to allow them through. What's more there is good evidence that this barrier extends to the rest of the castle. Namely the fact that Draco has to repair the vanishing cabinet to get the Deatheaters in during HBP. If you can just set up a portkey at will why go to all that trouble? He just needs learn the Portus spell and hey presto! Job done!
So the answer to why go to all this trouble is simple. The cup was always going to be a portkey to pull the champion out of the maze (one less person to retrive) Crouch Jr simply altered it's destination. The reason Voldemort chose this method is it was the only time that the barriers would be down and the portkey would work. Naturally this information was extracted from the unfortunate Bertha Jorkins.
The only alternative that I can see would be to try and grab Harry during a Hogsmead weekend and that risks a large number of witnesses. Further more, if the potion was taking a long time to brew that means keeping Harry alive for possibly months until it's ready, which leaves time for a search. Ideally Voldemort needs Harry as close to the potions completion as possible, so if there weren't any weekend visits at the time a Hogsmead snatch becomes too risky as well.
As for how Voldemort expected to cover up Harry's death, well we know apparition and floo powder carry risks, what about a tragic accident with a portkey. Less likely to arouse Dumbledore's suspicions and given that it's explictly stated that Voldemort wasn't going for the big flashy return at that point the most probable. In fact if the crowd really could see the cup, this explaination would carry more weight, because there would be a noticable gap between Harry's disappearence and reappearence. Either way he's covered.


 
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