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Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?



 
 
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  #61  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:24 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

It's already been revealed in OotP, so we don't need to have it revealed any further. As I posted on the previous page, there was an extensive discussion in OotP, attended by quite a few Order members, explaining what Voldemort had planned, and why Harry's survival messed that up. So, we certainly don't need a further update on it. And since it is highly likely that there will be no other explanation reversing that information, what we have been told already will indeed stand.


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  #62  
Old April 11th, 2007, 1:46 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I think he wanted to come back with Harry dead and him in the middle of Hogwarts killing the people there.....including Dumbleldore.


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  #63  
Old April 12th, 2007, 4:48 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

He wouldn't have placed himself, alone no less, in front of hundreds of people, including talented Hogwarts' professors, full-qualified adult wizards, ministry members, aurors, Order members, and Dumbledore. He's not stupid.

If the idea was to kill Dumbledore then Fake!Moody could have done it anytime that year. In fact he could have made a portkey for Voldemort to use, if Voldemort wanted to do it himself.

Please look at my posts on the previous page. I've quoted a section from OotP that has Sirius and quite a few Order members explaining what Voldemort's plan had been. We actually have printed canon explaining it.


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  #64  
Old April 12th, 2007, 6:07 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sllagnire View Post
One other question on this subject: Wouldn't the people watching the task realize that Harry had disappeared for some time? Weren't the spectators sitting up in the Quidditch seats? Couldn't they see into the maze? Harry was away for a fairly long time. Wouldn't they notice?
It wouldn't be considered too odd for the contestants to have been in the maze for a long time. It was supposed to be difficult, after all. Also, even though the spectators were sitting in the stands, it's doubtful they would have been able to see anything. Chapter 31 tells us the third task began at night. "The sky was a deep, clear blue now, and the first stars were starting to appear." Chapter 31 also tells us that "The towering hedges cast black shadows across the path," and "The maze was growing darker with every passing minute as the sky deepened to navy." Since it was night, and the maze was dark, it's highly unlikely the spectators would have seen anything happening inside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicalmysteryg View Post
with the third task, they had a reasonable degree of assurance that harry would get there first, especially with putting krum under the imperius curse and stunning fleur. but if harry had been kept thirty seconds longer battling a skrewt or sphinx, cedric would just have taken the cup. it wasn't foolproof. what would've been more foolproof would have just passed harry in an empty hall and slipped him a portkey? harry wasn't supposed to come back alive, so it wouldn't have ruined moody's disguise.
It wouldn't have ruined Moody's disguise, but it certainly would have shown that something was not right in the wizarding world, having Harry Potter show up unexplainably dead. Using the maze made a great cover- when Harry's dead body was found, everyone would have assumed it was the maze that did him in. No one would have been the wiser.
Quote:
and wouldn't they have noticed when two of the contestants dissapeared in "a howl of wind and swirling color" and both be lifted off the ground? maybe the walls of the maze were too high, but it still seems hard to beleive. what would the spectators have been doing there if they couldn't watch the event? so lets assume they could see them.
Frequently, spectators go to events that they can't see well, if at all. Concerts, sports events, etc. No one knows how long anyone would have lasted in the maze- it's entirely possible that they were there to see who came out first because they had to be rescued, and who came out first because they found the cup. Leaving after they entered the maze would defeat both purposes. Also, in both times where the "howl of wind and swirling color" is mentioned, it's mentioned after Harry feels the tug behind his navel, suggesting that the wind and the color are only visible/hearable to those touching the portkey.
Quote:
so the portkey didn't return him to the center, it returned him to the edge.
It's likely that Fake!Moody only added a stop in the list of destinations for that portkey. Instead of changing its final destination, he just added the stop at the graveyard. Then, once Harry was dead, they could have used the original destination for the cup- to pull the winner to the front of the maze. Of course, Harry would have been dead, but his death would still have been attributed to the maze, and nothing more sinister.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sllagnire View Post
It seems that someone (other than Moody, of course, as we know he was on the bad side anyway) would have to have been able to see what was going on in the maze and notice that Harry and Cedric suddenly went missing.
If someone could see inside, then they could help the contestants that they saw. That would make it unfair. The tournament was intended to be very difficult, death defying. They had teachers posted all around the outside of the maze, waiting to see sparks in case someone needed rescuing.


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  #65  
Old April 12th, 2007, 6:15 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Like most evil villains in literature and film, Voldemort probably relishes in eliminating his enemies through overly intricate schemes that include detailing much of his own evil logic and plans for domination to the hero before actually killing the hero. Who needs the easy way out when the more complicated path is so much more fun!


  #66  
Old April 12th, 2007, 11:57 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

By using the Tri-Wizard Cup as a portkey, Mad-Eye Barty had a controlled situation, which avoided a lot of complications for him, his cover, and his escape.

Had he used a portkey in his office, he firstly, could not touch it to throw it at Harry, because it would have transported him before Harry could use it. Secondly, Harry's disappearance from his office could be tracked easier. Thirdly, any student, house-elf, or teacher entering his office could have accidentally touched that portkey, transporting them errantly.

By taking the Tri-Wizard Cup to the middle of the labrynth and then imbuing it with the magic to make it a portkey, he avoids having to touch it to put it in Harry's hands, and the number of other people who could accidentally touch it is greatly reduced. He then bewitched Krum to take out the other competitors, only successfully knocking out Fleur.


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  #67  
Old July 27th, 2007, 5:17 pm
DARKastheRAIN  Female.gif DARKastheRAIN is offline
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Possible explanation to why they used the triwizard cup to get Harry out of Hogwarts

It's just a theory, and it's probably not the reason JK thought of or the book probably would have said so. But it makes perfect sense. It may have been said before though, so it could be nothing new to anyone. But anyway, here it is.

So we always wondered why Barty Crouch Jr. used the tri wizard cup for the portkey instead of just using something else that Harry would have touched in his everyday life and saved Crouch Jr. all the trouble of getting Harry through the maze. But then there's another question. If you can simply take a portkey in and out of Hogwarts wouldn't anyone be able to get in and out? It would kind of undermine the whole no apparation thing. That's far too simple isn't it? If the students wanted to sneak of to Hogsmead or something all they'd have to do is make a portkey. And even worse anyone from outside could get in. Sirius could have easily gotten in in Harry's third year(although I don't think he had a wand, but they didn't know that) and the death eaters wouldn't have had to use the vanishing cabinate in book six if they could have just as easily used a portkey.

So how's this for an answer. Maybe Crouch Jr. couldn't have used anything for the portkey. Maybe only the headmaster could authorize a portkey work inside the school or the grounds(Dumbledore sends Harry back by portkey in Book five) so maybe the Triwizard cup was already a portkey. Maybe Dumbledore or someone with Dumbledore's authority made the cup a portkey to transport the first person to touch it outside of the maze, because something had to happen when they touched it right or how would anyone know who touched it first. It makes much more sense to transport them straight out of the maze than to make them find there way back out. So then since the cup was already a portkey and Dumbledore had authorized it to be one, maybe that made it possible for someone to make it a portkey to somewhere else instead since that object had already been authorized to be a portkey by Dumbledore. So then it would be the only way to get Harry out of Hogwarts so it would be worth it to go through all the trouble of getting Harry through the tournament. That would also explain why it took Harry back to Hogwarts when he touched it the second time. Maybe that was just the origional enchantment kicking in, cause it did transport him outside the maze instead of back to the middle of it.

anyway just a theory. Like I said if that were the case the book probably would have explained it.


  #68  
Old July 28th, 2007, 2:28 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicloetje View Post
Voldemort loves grandeur, he loves the splendor and showing off. He wants credit for the things he does. That is why he set up a complicated evil plan to get Harry to the graveyard, to take him away, right from under Dumbledores nose, likeJimmyPotter said: without DD suspecting something. There was much at stake for Voldemort, it was all or nothing for him.
Very, very well-said. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Anyway...here is my theory:

Voldemort is a lover of showing off. He likes people to know what he has done and get credit - whether good or bad - for it, like nicloetje said. However, there is one thing that he did not count on, and that is the fact that Harry was able to defeat him for a fourth time once there. Also, has anyone noticed that Harry can be sort of - well - naive at times? He fell for Voldy's plan - and all his other (failed) plans - because of this. I think that if Harry was not as naive, he would not have fallen for all of Voldy's plans.


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  #69  
Old July 28th, 2007, 11:50 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyVoldemort View Post
Very, very well-said. I couldn't have put it better myself.

Anyway...here is my theory:

Voldemort is a lover of showing off. He likes people to know what he has done and get credit - whether good or bad - for it, like nicloetje said. However, there is one thing that he did not count on, and that is the fact that Harry was able to defeat him for a fourth time once there. Also, has anyone noticed that Harry can be sort of - well - naive at times? He fell for Voldy's plan - and all his other (failed) plans - because of this. I think that if Harry was not as naive, he would not have fallen for all of Voldy's plans.
well, i suppose he can be sort of naive... i mean, he was getting signs of the dark lord's returning all year, and heard someone talking about a faithful servant at hogwarts, but he assumed it was Snape or Karkaroff, and not without good reason, because they were both death eaters. but how many young wizards would go to hogwarts and expect their DADA teacher to be a death eater posing as the real teacher, with the real version locked in a magic trunk? the back story was convincing enough, harry having heard the conversation between the weasleys and Mr Diggory when his head was in the burrow's fire about moody being somewhat mental and setting off attacking dustbins because he heard intruders. apparently, this is just normal moody behaviour. even dumbledore didn't recognise that barty crouch Jr was posing as moody, until when harry came back from the graveyard and it was too late. so, yes harry can be naive, but in general, he seems to have a pretty good idea of what's going on. in half blood prince, he certainly recognised malfoy being branded with the dark mark before hermione and ron did, and he turned out to be right.


  #70  
Old July 30th, 2007, 5:56 pm
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Re: Possible explanation to why they used the triwizard cup to get Harry out of Hogwa

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKastheRAIN View Post
anyway just a theory. Like I said if that were the case the book probably would have explained it.
I love it! Your theory makes perfect sense and that is what I now believe is the case.


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  #71  
Old July 31st, 2007, 3:20 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Voldemort is the type of Wizard that would want his lacky to do everything as big as possible. By allowing Barty to use any means allowed Voldemort could stand by to take what he truely believes should be his... thats y he allowed Barty all the freedom he could muster...


  #72  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 7:52 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

This thread should be called The Unconditional J.K Rowling Apologists Thread. Seriously, 4 pages of extremely convoluted explanations to such an obviously huge plot hole? The simple fact is J.K made a huge mistake with this one, and its the reason why GoF is my least favorite book. And for those saying "The book would only be thirty pages if Barty used Harry's pillow", you're right. But that's not an excuse to use a plot that makes no sense. It means you need to come up with a completely new plot that stands up to scrutiny.


  #73  
Old August 2nd, 2007, 10:50 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilkittikat View Post
Because Harry dissapearing from the middle of Hogwarts would've been too obvious - DD would've caught on. No-one would notice if Harry dissapeared from the maze - If he didn't come out they'd just assume he was lost, and it would be ages before they sent someone in. By then, Voldie would've been able to kill harry.
Good answer!


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  #74  
Old August 3rd, 2007, 8:47 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalWand View Post
This thread should be called The Unconditional J.K Rowling Apologists Thread. Seriously, 4 pages of extremely convoluted explanations to such an obviously huge plot hole? The simple fact is J.K made a huge mistake with this one, and its the reason why GoF is my least favorite book. And for those saying "The book would only be thirty pages if Barty used Harry's pillow", you're right. But that's not an excuse to use a plot that makes no sense. It means you need to come up with a completely new plot that stands up to scrutiny.
Ouch, is it too late to have your sugarcoated version? As much as I hate to admit, because I still do love GoF... but I do have to agree with you on this.


  #75  
Old August 5th, 2007, 6:53 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Meh, I still think it has something to do with portkeys usually not being allowed in and out of Hogwarts. I mean, otherwise, book 6 would have been 30 pages long as well, why couldn't Draco or the Death Eaters make a portkey to Dumbledore's office or something ?
Perhaps, being the headmaster, only Dumbledore has the power to enchant objects into portkeys in his school, and Barty could have just changed the destination.


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  #76  
Old August 5th, 2007, 7:35 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

who knows? and who cares because it makes the plot all the more interesting. don't you think?


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  #77  
Old August 5th, 2007, 7:45 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Wouldn't it look suspicious if Voldy killed harry on the 1st day and the body suddenly appeared out of nowhere? The maze was the most dangerous task and the best one to put a portkey into, because no one would see harry dissapear and there was a high chance of death in that task too, and the plan to make a portkey in hogwarts propably took a while too....


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  #78  
Old August 5th, 2007, 7:50 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

he just wanted to use something that he knew harry would touch


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  #79  
Old August 21st, 2007, 4:31 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

The only place where JKR made a mistake in my eyes was in not letting us know that the cup was a portkey. I wonder if the contestants knew because Harry insisted that he and Cedric touch it exactly together - and that would have assured their return to the front of the maze. Yet in the book, I believe that Cedric asked Harry if he knew the cup was a portkey, and was this supposed to happen (being sent to the cemetery). In the movie, Harry tells Cedric that they had to get back to the cup quickly (but of course didn't succeed.) Hmmm... instead of clarifying anything, I think I just muddied the waters.

Cup as portkey - when we have seen a portkey previously, it was active for only a moment, but obviously this couldn't have been programmed this way. DD must have some inkling about Moody/aka Crouch jr, since it was he who put it in the center of the maze. And if this one could be touched to do that, then Crouch jr/Moody had to be the one who activated it.

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